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Subject: Re: UKNM: plug-in take up/stats
From: jim smith
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:58:19 +0100

At 1:29 pm +0100 on 27/4/99 you said:
>Ray Taylor wrote:
>> ... and just to clarify further, I am not pro- or anti- frames any more than
>> I am pro- or anti- flash (though I must admit to confusing the two in my
>> last posting). The same customer-focus tests should apply.
>> But many frames sites are so badly designed that a no-frames version would
>> be better and even with a well-designed frames site, the frames layout
>> doesn't necessarily add any value to the equivalent no-frames version.
>there's more to it than this; Frames implementations in the browsers are
>awful. The concept is awful. The crappy workarounds they did to make the
>back buttons still work, the Frame-selection mechanism, the inability to
>bookmark. The things Frames do to HTTP1.1 Keepalives. Search engine

these are implementation issues as far as the creators of sites are
concerned, mostly. just because something is hard for us to do it doesn't
mean that it's not a good solution.

thing is, frames usually aren't a good solution. there's still a place for
frames for navigation: the problem is that there are so few designers who
can design a usable navigation system that most sites framed or not are
counter-intuitive to use. if i see one more site with nav buttons on all
four edges of the page i'll hunt down the designer and spank them.

the main issue is that they're not *necessary*: if cleanly architected
sites like the BBC news site can function without frames, then what purpose
do they serve?

>These things all break the usability that people expected and originally
>*got* from their browsers. They turned the most elegant information
>dissemination mechanism yet devised into an ugly, unworkable mess.
>How many more reasons do you want?
>Can anyone name a large site that still uses frames?

anything OM's ever done?

jim smith - jimatflenser [dot] co [dot] uk - http://www.flenser.co.uk 0961 319040
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meanings their words -- alpha 60
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  Re: UKNM: plug-in take up/stats, Ray Taylor
  Re: UKNM: plug-in take up/stats, Stefan Magdalinski

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