uk-netmarketing Archive (2011-2015)

Hi Angus

Being a contributor to this thread / discussion I must admit when I first read Amanda's email I thought it was directed at my comments (and it, sort of, is). One of the things that frustrates me when having this kind of discussion is the 'what if in this one instance' argument which is then used to make sweeping generalisations which don't stand up to scrutiny.

Another is your last paragraph. I assume you know the difference between software and patents - the issue with Android is not software ownership, it's patents based on functionality that Apple (and others) claims to own which it mimicked. In fact, many of those were bought / inherited by Apple and not of their own creation anyway. The phone manufacturers are not having sleepless nights - they seem to be building them in their bucketload and, when it comes to the litigation in the end, there' so much evidence on either side it's not going to be a clear cut case... and, yes, Google did pay a premium for Motorola precisely to get back in the patent game.

I absolutely agree that anyone investing heavily in web needs to be aware of the licensing issues, both of the source code / platform as well as the software on top... but I don't get your arguments.

Illustration: I saw a developer yesterday - smart chap - has done a very user-friendly CMS system for his clients and was pitching for some work from me.

Me: 'How is the software licensed?'
He: 'It is my software but I give a lifetime license (website, that is), and all the code is marked up fully'
Me: 'What if I wanted to modify it?'
He: 'I can do it'
Me: 'What if I wanted to take it and use someone else to modify it?'
He: 'Why would you do that?'
Me: '... I empower my clients to make the best choices for themselves'
He: 'Why do you do that?'

Now this is a lose - lose - lose situation:
- My client loses because they get tied to a supplier with little exit opportunity and are reliant on someone who is basically a freelancers who may/may not be here in 5 years time
- I lose because I put the client in this situation and I am at the mercy of this supplier and how he chooses to extend, build and support his framework
- He loses because CMS systems are a commodity which everyone knows is 'free' to license and therefore there is no value in their software and he has to support it when there may be only a handful of sites ever built on the system in the first place. He can only add value by doing something unique - and a menu and page manager with your typical WYSIWYG editor in it just doesn't cut it).

(I love the simple argument, by the way - 'clients want simple' ... is it that? Or is is more: 'I can't afford to build or support complex' ;-)

The initial point I made still stands - watch out on licenses... and DO NOT create a large platform (and invest lots of money) in something which you do not (nor ever will) own.

Many thanks


John




On 28 Nov 2011, at 11:02, Angus Phillipson wrote:

> Hi Amanda,
> 
> You appear to have dragged a soap box into a pretty sensible discussion.
> You have also made some incorrect assumptions and seem to assert there is
> only one type of open source license and that users share cuddles as they
> develop and license back modifications.
> 
> Perhaps you could read the thread properly before commenting?  Given your
> role you probably understand better than most the implications of access
> to source code and licenses to use and modify it.
> 
> The point being made is that before making a choice on underlying
> software, of any type,  users need to understand fully the implications of
> the license to use it, to use extensions from it and modifications to it.
> Which is good advice.    I was giving examples of the many different
> license scenarios , not advising or making a judgment.
> 
> But,  since you actually made the association between open-source
> licensing and sleepless nights (nobody actually said that, but....)  and
> because it's Monday morning and I'm a little short of sleep,  perhaps you
> could explain why phone handset manufacturers using the apache software
> licensed Android operating system are having sleepless nights?  Maybe you
> could add a note on why Android does not use the LGPL license format.
> Hint:  license infringements & compliance cost to downstream developers...
> 
> Regards
> 
> angus
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: uk-netmarketing-bounces at mm.chinwag.com
> [mailto:uk-netmarketing-bounces at mm.chinwag.com] On Behalf Of Amanda Brock
> Sent: 26 November 2011 10:42
> To: uk-netmarketing at mm.chinwag.com
> Subject: Re: [uk-netmarketing] Sports - Community Website Platform
> 
> Hi, I don't normally comment on this list, but this is a little misleading
> re open source and its causing sleepless nights. Using existing software
> without a licence fee of course makes the basis of development simpler and
> cheaper for many. Comments below.
> 
> Amanda
> 
> Amanda Brock, General Counsel
> Canonical
> 27 Floor, Millbank Tower
> London SW1P 4QP
> +44 2076302446
> +44 7809389878
> Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings
> www.canonical.com
> 
> 
> On 24/11/11 14:27, Angus Phillipson wrote:
>> 
>> Hi John,
>> 
>> Sorry to be a pedant, but you don't necessarily "own" anything open
>> source either (assuming that was the comparison you were making).
>> 
>> You may have an open source code license to redistribute though.   But
>> you may have a restrictive open source code license,  which is not
>> uncommon.
>> 
> And when you say restrictive, what you mean is that you have to licence
> back modifications, not that you are restricted from using the code as you
> wish, other then that sharing the goodness, element?
>> 
>> Alternatively you might have a non-restrictive license to use closed
>> source software,  which allows budding entrepreneurs to sleep easy on
>> ownership issues.
>> 
> The licences don't require transfer of ownership, just a licence back of
> the new work created using the open source licences, engineers who work in
> open source are very familiar with this and its a matter of course and in
> many cases pride for them to add their contributions.
> 
> Not clear why that would stop anyone sleeping easy at night.
>> 
>> Confusingly .NET can also be open source too, like Umbraco
>> http://umbraco.com/download/source-code-license.aspx which is largely
>> distributed under the MIT license.
>> 
>> I would agree with you though,  .Net development can be comparably
>> labour intensive if you were developing a community website from
>> scratch (say),  and there are licensing considerations for MS SQL
>> server.   But ruby on rails application development is also labour
>> intensive,  and there are other databases available..
>> 
>> Umbraco might make development faster,  by giving you pre-existing
>> modules to use under license, and you could always run it on  MySQL
>> database.    Which might make a comparanbly cheap implementation.
>> 
>> Horses for courses.
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> angus
>> 
>> *From:*uk-netmarketing-bounces at mm.chinwag.com
>> <mailto:uk-netmarketing-bounces at mm.chinwag.com>
>> [mailto:uk-netmarketing-bounces at mm.chinwag.com
>> <mailto:uk-netmarketing-bounces at mm.chinwag.com>] *On Behalf Of *John
>> Braithwaite
>> *Sent:* 24 November 2011 11:22
>> *To:* uk-netmarketing
>> *Subject:* Re: [uk-netmarketing] Sports - Community Website Platform
>> 
>> Suzy
>> 
>> I have no experience of developing a community site from scratch and
>> so am not in a position to suggest a platform for you.
>> 
>> Perhaps I have a jaded view, but I have a number of clients who regret
>> ever committing to the .net platform. Not only are it's benefits
>> exaggerated but it costs a lot more to operate and run (OK - perhaps
>> 200% is over the top, but just call it 'considerably more').
>> 
>> Furthermore (for all those budding entrepreneurs out there) there is a
>> further issue... if you create a great community site and find it is
>> of considerable value and would like to sell it... if you are on a
>> customised and licensed platform you almost certainly will find buyers
>> more wary and offering less for your site / community. Because you
>> don't really 'own' it fully.
>> 
>> So, food for thought...
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> On 22 Nov 2011, at 17:25, Suzy Turnbull wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> So, John, what would you recommend?
>> 
>> *From: *John Braithwaite <john at ergodigital.com
>> <mailto:john at ergodigital.com>>
>> *Reply-To: *uk-netmarketing <uk-netmarketing at mm.chinwag.com
>> <mailto:uk-netmarketing at mm.chinwag.com>>
>> *Date: *Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:10:30 +0000
>> *To: *uk-netmarketing <uk-netmarketing at mm.chinwag.com
>> <mailto:uk-netmarketing at mm.chinwag.com>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [uk-netmarketing] Sports - Community Website Platform
>> 
>> Sitecore = .net platform = almost 200% more on developer (time) + not
>> open source = raised ongoing costs...
>> 
>> On 22 Nov 2011, at 12:20, Ty-John Roberts wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I'll agree with Dan and say Sitecore would do this as it handles lots
>> of countries very well.
>> 
>> Sorry to say I wouldnt choose Drupal, as to my knowledge it would need
>> a lot of developing
>> 
>> Just my two pence :)
>> 
>> Ty
>> 
>> On 21 Nov 2011, at 23:53, daniel barker wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> hi, Suzy,
>> 
>> I'm not sure whether you're asking for a general enterprise CMS tool,
>> or a specific 'community' platform.
>> 
>> If the former, Tridion, Oracle WebCenter, SiteCore & Autonomy WCM are
>> all big, enterprise CMS systems that will handle that kind of thing.
>> 
>> If the latter, Jive, IBM Connections, and Telligent are the big ones I
>> know of. (The first 2 are most often used for big internal comms
>> networks afaik)
>> 
>> Hope that helps in some way!
>> 
>> dan
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> dan barker
>> http://www.barker.dj <http://www.barker.dj/>
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/djbarker
>> +44 (0)7855 953 942 <tel:%2B44%20%280%297855%20953%20942>
>> 
>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Suzy Turnbull
>> <sturnbull at emarketing-tactics.com
>> <mailto:sturnbull at emarketing-tactics.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Chinwagger Community,
>> 
>> I wonder if you may be able to point me in the right direction to find
>> a really robust and sustainable platform to build a Community website
>> for a large scale multi-sporting event, not as big as the Olympics,
>> but along the same lines where many countries are involved.
>> 
>> I would welcome your ideas and suggestions.
>> 
>> Many thanks indeed.
>> 
>> Suzy Turnbull
>> 
>> *Suzy Turnbull (DIP Dig M)*
>> 
>> E Marketing Tactics
>> 
>> Tel: +(507) 265 3508 <tel:%2B%28507%29%20265%203508>
>> 
>> Cell: +(507) 6480 3623 <tel:%2B%28507%29%206480%203623>
>> 
>> Skype:  suzyturnbull
>> 
>> Email: sturnbull at emarketing-tactics.com
>> <mailto:sturnbull at emarketing-tactics.com>
>> 
>> Web: http://emarketing-tactics.com <http://emarketing-tactics.com/>
>> 
>> Linked In: http://pa.linkedin.com/in/suzyturnbull
>> 
>> 
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>> sion
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>> Office: 2nd Floor, Pinewood, West Ham Lane, Basingstoke, Hampshire,
>> RG22 5EE
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>> 
>> 
>> ~~ Chinwag Jobs: Find your perfect new job or next team member ~~
>> 
>> Chinwag Jobs is the leading specialist recruitment website for digital
>> roles in the UK. Used by major companies such as BBC, Electronic Arts,
>> Kingston University as well as the majority of recruitment agencies
>> who place staff in the sector.
>> 
>> Take a look through our listings or register to advertise your own
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> ~~ Chinwag Jobs: Find your perfect new job or next team member ~~
> 
> Chinwag Jobs is the leading specialist recruitment website for digital
> roles in the UK. Used by major companies such as BBC, Electronic Arts,
> Kingston University as well as the majority of recruitment agencies who
> place staff in the sector.
> 
> Take a look through our listings or register to advertise your own
> vacancies today.
> 
>>> CHINWAG JOBS: http://jobs.chinwag.com
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> 
> Chinwag Jobs is the leading specialist recruitment website for digital
> roles in the UK. Used by major companies such as BBC, Electronic
> Arts, Kingston University as well as the majority of recruitment
> agencies who place staff in the sector.
> 
> Take a look through our listings or register to advertise your
> own vacancies today.
> 
>>> CHINWAG JOBS: http://jobs.chinwag.com
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