uk-netmarketing Archive (2011-2015)
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Mon Nov 14 13:34:15 GMT 2011
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businesses (i.e. clients) who have seen the full benefits (the 30-40% you have quoted so openly in your email). So either: 1. It doesn't really work but is a nice idea and, but more of a market positioning than actual improvement, or 2. Those that use it keep the additional savings to themselves, or 3. I have missed out on all those actual 'real world' case studies of clients who have seen this sort of benefit I have, however, been in many meetings with developers who claim that their process / go faster stripes will make my life so much easier and then, in practice, it doesn't. Still, I always admire a new spin... to get the best out of it, you need to get yourself some 'chaordic agents' to employ too. On 30 Nov 2011, at 12:37, Angus Phillipson wrote: Hah! John, Did you really just dismiss the most important paradigm shift in systems development process as a go-faster stripe! I love it. Agile is indeed easy to say, and no doubt the credentials of the Ecademy SEO experts/coaches will soon include =91agile coach=92. I accept it is easy to get wrong, and when inexperienced teams get it wrong it goes very (very) wrong, as you are removing the traditional project management constraints. Which makes it risky in the hands of chancers. However, after training, experience and with the right systems, methodology and client engagement it makes a phenomenal difference to the quality, cost and inherent risk of systems development. 30-40% successful scope change *during* development is not uncommon. And that is 30-40% of =91stage 2=92 you don=92t have left after the first implementation. That is a very handsome saving in priority requirements over redundant functionality indeed. And if you also drop in methodology like pair programming from XP and test driven methodology then you have something rather lovely from a development process perspective. Much better systems, delivered faster and at lower cost. What=92s not to like? angus ~~ Chinwag Jobs: Find your perfect new job or next team member ~~ Chinwag Jobs is the leading specialist recruitment website for digital roles in the UK. Used by major companies such as BBC, Electronic Arts, Kingston University as well as the majority of recruitment agencies who place staff in the sector. Take a look through our listings or register to advertise your own vacancies today. >> CHINWAG JOBS: http://jobs.chinwag.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You're subscribed to uk-netmarketing to change your options or unsubscribe: https://mm.chinwag.com/options/uk-netmarketing uk-netmarketing discussion list is powered by http://chinwag.com --0016e654248404c60a04b31b9808 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset= =3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 14 (filtere= d medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; 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lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div = class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0= pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi= Ben,</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"= ,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Yep, easy to be cynical with advanci= ng years!</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"= ,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D">And yes,=A0 different developers dif= ferent speed -=A0=A0 but =A0velocity is the great leveller, and a good scru= m mater will manage that.=A0=A0 Obviously collaborative planning and estima= ting helps,=A0 hence planning poker on the more complex development tasks.= =A0=A0 But you are only as good as the consistency of your estimates.=A0=A0= The more you do that the better it gets though, as the team buys in and se= es that it takes pressure off the more you do it.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"= ,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Also I would add different types of = development impact that =96 belt and braces process not required for a simp= le website implementation with standard feature set, for example.=A0=A0 But= on-going software (product) development or large, complex implementation a= different matter.<br> <br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-= family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We introdu= ced both Agile and TDD (and bits of XP,=A0 predominantly pairing)=A0 a few = years back.=A0 The pairing (and regular team code reviews) offset the silli= ness,=A0 both in coding and determining what to test,=A0 and whilst it slow= s you down short term the gain overall in quality and productivity mid to = =A0long term is good.=A0=A0 Across the company and multiple projects the ev= idence is anecdotal=A0 (easier to measure on a single project),=A0=A0 but w= e are working on =91throughput=92=A0 accounting to measure that -=A0 found = this book useful for the throughput</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;f= ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> measu= rement </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri&quo= t;,"sans-serif""><a href=3D"http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/01= 31424602">http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0131424602</a>=A0 -=A0 <span s= tyle=3D"color:#1F497D">hopefully soon to be put into practice.</span></span= ></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"= ,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We=92ve backed off on 100% test cove= rage upfront,=A0 as I think you are right, it can be too onerous.=A0=A0 Dim= inishing returns, I guess.=A0 =A0We tend to test core system components, = =A0build out making judgment calls on what to test within each project, =A0= and accept that there will be a bit of a build-up of technical debt and ref= actoring as a consequence.=A0 =A0=A0=A0But that is no bad thing.=A0=A0 As w= ith anything there=92s a balance to be found.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"= ,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It=92s nice to be able to deliver sy= stems that are more usable and used and less buggy and more predictable tho= ugh,=A0=A0 which is the outcome of agile and test driven process.</span></p= > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"= ,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D">angus</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"= ,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"= ,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&= quot;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-= US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-ser= if""> <a href=3D"mailto:uk-netmarketing-bounces at mm.chinwag.com">uk-net= marketing-bounces at mm.chinwag.com</a> <a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:uk-netmarket= ing-bounces at mm.chinwag.com]">[mailto:uk-netmarketing-bounces at mm.chinwag.com= ]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Thompson<br> <b>Sent:</b> 01 December 2011 11:45<br><b>To:</b> uk-netmarketing<br><b>Sub= ject:</b> [uk-netmarketing] Developers and development [was Sports - Commun= ity Website Platform]</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p><p class=3D"M= soNormal"> The problem here is that not all developers are equal. Some can be 20 times= faster than others simply because they have better knowledge or tools to d= o the same job.</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal"> My viewpoint on Agile is that it appeared at the same time as Test Driven D= evelopment to offset the additional time TDD consumed. It works if you can = split delivery into separate releases but how many projects actually work l= ike that.=A0</p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">= I'm also starting to query the joy of TDD as many people seem very capa= ble of creating the tests they expect to pass and miss all the ones regardi= ng Joe Hacker trying to break the site for fun.</p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">= It may be that I'm getting more cynical in my old age. Those of you who= know me from days gone by will probably think that wasn't possible but= I can assure you it is.</p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">= Regards,</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D= "MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ben Thompson</p><div><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"> On 30 November 2011 17:28, John Braithwaite <<a href=3D"mailto:john at ergo= digital.com">john at ergodigital.com</a>> wrote:</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNor= mal">Hah! Did you just use the phrase 'paradigm shift' without a gr= inning a little at the cleverness of it all.</p> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">From w= hat I have seen and experienced, I have not yet encountered any businesses = (i.e. clients) who have seen the full benefits (the 30-40% you have quoted = so openly in your email). So either:</p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. It doesn't really work but is a ni= ce idea and, but more of a market positioning than actual improvement, or</= p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Those that use it keep the additiona= l savings to themselves, or</p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">3. I have missed out on all those actual = 'real world' case studies of clients who have seen this sort of ben= efit</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso= Normal"> I have, however, been in many meetings with developers who claim that their= process / go faster stripes will make my life so much easier and then, in = practice, it doesn't.</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div= > <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Still, I always admire a new spin... to get the= best out of it, you need to get yourself some 'chaordic agents' to= employ too.</p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><d= iv> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 30 Nov 20= 11, at 12:37, Angus Phillipson wrote:</p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><= br></p><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p= t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hah= ! =A0=A0=A0John, Did you really just dismiss the most important paradigm sh= ift in systems development process as a go-faster stripe!=A0=A0 I love it.<= /span></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q= uot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><div>= <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Agile is indeed easy to s= ay,=A0 and no doubt the credentials of the Ecademy SEO experts/coaches will= soon include =91agile coach=92.</span></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q= uot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><div>= <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I accept it is easy to ge= t wrong,=A0 and when inexperienced teams get it wrong it goes very (very) w= rong,=A0 as you are removing the traditional project management constraints= .=A0=A0 Which makes it risky in the hands of chancers.</span></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q= uot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><div>= <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">However, after training, = experience and with the right systems, methodology and client engagement it= makes a phenomenal difference to the quality, =A0cost =A0and inherent risk= of systems development.=A0</span></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q= uot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><div>= <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">30-40% successful scope c= hange *during* development is not uncommon. =A0=A0And that is 30-40% of =91= stage 2=92 you don=92t have left after the first implementation.=A0 That is= a very handsome saving in priority requirements over redundant functionali= ty indeed.</span></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q= uot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><div>= <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">And if you also drop in m= ethodology like pair programming from XP and test driven methodology then y= ou have something rather lovely from a development process perspective.</sp= an></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q= uot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><div>= <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Much better systems, deli= vered faster and at lower cost.</span></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q= uot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><div>= <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What=92s not to like?</sp= an></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q= uot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p><div>= <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">angus</span></p> </div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div></div></div></d= iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>~~ Chinwag Jobs: Find your perfect new job or= next team member ~~<br><br>Chinwag Jobs is the leading specialist recruitm= ent website for digital<br> roles in the UK. Used by major companies such as BBC, Electronic<br>Arts, K= ingston University as well as the majority of recruitment<br>agencies who p= lace staff in the sector.<br><br>Take a look through our listings or regist= er to advertise your<br> own vacancies today.<br><br>>> CHINWAG JOBS: <a href=3D"http://jobs.c= hinwag.com" target=3D"_blank">http://jobs.chinwag.com</a><br>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>You're subscribed to uk-netmark= eting to change your options or<br> unsubscribe: <a href=3D"https://mm.chinwag.com/options/uk-netmarketing" tar= get=3D"_blank">https://mm.chinwag.com/options/uk-netmarketing</a><br><br>uk= -netmarketing discussion list is powered by <a href=3D"http://chinwag.com" = target=3D"_blank">http://chinwag.com</a></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div></div></body></html> --0016e654248404c60a04b31b9808--
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